Thomas Tuchel (England manager)

[Jay Bee]

When you still have such a negative manager you will win jack sh*t Venables let his players play, you walk away with the feeling you could’ve won the game, not backs to the wall, and what if, same as the euros final

What did Venables win with England? Remarkable how often he comes up in these discussions as some beacon of hope from the past (I was at the euro 96 games and fondly remember it and we could have beaten Germany in extra time... but let's not oversell it as a generational triumph)

International trophies tend to be won by the teams with the best defence. Spain will probably win this world cup and amongst other qualities they've only conceded once in 7 games.

You may not like it but with limited training time, being cautious is a common strategy in international football and it can work. It didn't wotk tonight, but no need to burn the witch.

 

[aslan]

Alex Ferguson was a manager for over a decade - and a very successful one - before he took over at Man U in 1986 - a decent team with plenty of money to spend.

And it still took him 6 full seasons before he won his first PL in 1992/93, and another 6 before he won the CL in 1998/99.

While the half of their fanbase would have had him sacked in 1989, with their "Fergie Out!" banners and all, had Mark Robins not saved his bacon with the goal in a 1-0 3rd Rd FA Cup in January, before they went on to win it for their first trophy under him in May 1990.

Though as against that, it is a well-known fact that there is no problem in football which cannot be solved by sacking the manager. Which is why eg Watford are Premier League champions, season-in, season-out.

What's that got to do with anything.

You compared Tuchel to a "new, young player coming through.. needing to learn the game" that's just not the case at all.
Majority of football fans knew exactly what would happen when making those subs, it happened. A manager of his experience should not be making those mistakes in such big games.

 

[Gawain]

When you still have such a negative manager you will win jack sh*t Venables let his players play, you walk away with the feeling you could’ve won the game, not backs to the wall, and what if, same as the euros final

Terry Venables was a truly great manager, no doubt. But he'd been a very accomplished manager for 16 years before getting the England gig; managed England for nearly the same number of games as TT (23 vs 21); and had Shearer and Gazza as his Kane and Bellingham. Yet he still "only" got to the semi-finals of the Euro's - pretty much the same as what TT has done, only with home advantage and no reigning world champions to face.

Would you have sacked El Tel for "failing", too?

 

[Gawain]

What's that got to do with anything.

You compared Tuchel to a "new, young player coming through.. needing to learn the game" that's just not the case at all.
Majority of football fans knew exactly what would happen when making those subs, it happened. A manager of his experience should not be making those mistakes in such big games.

TT is "new" in international terms, just as AF was "new" in Premier League terms. But while Ferguson was given time that he'd never get today, after 2 years and 21 games managing England, people with ZERO qualifications in football management are calling for TT to be sacked.

(And that's with no obvious replacement, either.)

 

[AlwaysBees]

Terry Venables was a truly great manager, no doubt. But he'd been a very accomplished manager for 16 years before getting the England gig; managed England for nearly the same number of games as TT (23 vs 21); and had Shearer and Gazza as his Kane and Bellingham. Yet he still "only" got to the semi-finals of the Euro's - pretty much the same as what TT has done, only with home advantage and no reigning world champions to face.

Would you have sacked El Tel for "failing", too?

Well he didn’t manage England after that, but so much more attacking and enjoyable, tournament football really is about going for it,which thankfully Keith found out last season and winning more games when you have attacking players on the pitch, lesson learnt today by all accounts otherwise Argies wouldn’t have won the game, congratulations to them how they turned the game around with attacking players and us sitting on the 18 yard line with no pace or midfield moving forward, and that is the Southgate and obviously the Tuchel way unfortunately

 

[B2B]

 

[dermotjordan]

Zero chance of the captain and leading scorer being dropped in a WC SF.

I get that & understand that Kane is a generational goal scorer. I believe though that England will never win a tournament with Kane. The refrain for many years has been that England are too slow in possession, need to be more decisive. I think when your centre forward can’t run, understand when your CMs get the ball they have nothing to hit. It entirely removes speedy transitions & makes you a team that needs slow build up possession. England had little variety to their play throughout the tournament. Kane is a goalscorer & of course I would start him, but in the 2nd half (well the whole game really), Kane was terrible & didn’t enable us to get up the pitch. After the goal we had zero out ball & it felt like we were back in Beckham/Eriksson territory where the star player is protected. Tbh Kane was poor against Norway & ineffectual v Mexico. Tonight’s loss was self inflicted with poor substitutions, Tuchel should take the blame for that.

 

[Gawain]

Well [Venables] didn’t manage England after that, but so much more attacking and enjoyable, tournament football really is about going for it,

Hmm, "so much more attacking and enjoyable" was it?

Of course we all remember the glorious 4-1 victory over Netherlands in the final Group game, but how many hark back to the opening game, when England drew 1-1 with, er, Switzerland?

While England were very average indeed in the first knock-out game (Quarter Finals) against Spain, but managed to draw 0-0 and scrape through after AET and penalties.

I was at that Spain game and I certainly don't remember it being attacking etc. As it happens, I was also at the following game vs Germany, and while that was a real roller-coaster, ultimately England lost.

Yet despite Venables falling at the same fence as Tuchel, and in a "lesser" tournament on home soil, I still thought it a shocking decision of the FA to dispense with his services immediately after.

I honestly don't see TT's position being much different.

 

[AlwaysBees]

I get that & understand that Kane is a generational goal scorer. I believe though that England will never win a tournament with Kane. The refrain for many years has been that England are too slow in possession, need to be more decisive. I think when your centre forward can’t run, understand when your CMs get the ball they have nothing to hit. It entirely removes speedy transitions & makes you a team that needs slow build up possession. England had little variety to their play throughout the tournament. Kane is a goalscorer & of course I would start him, but in the 2nd half (well the whole game really), Kane was terrible & didn’t enable us to get up the pitch. After the goal we had zero out ball & it felt like we were back in Beckham/Eriksson territory where the star player is protected. Tbh Kane was poor against Norway & ineffectual v Mexico. Tonight’s loss was self inflicted with poor substitutions, Tuchel should take the blame for that.

Hopefully the end of Kane era, great goal scorer but so slow in transition, and probably kept us from progressing, these days pace creates chances

 

[Wooburn Bee]

I get that & understand that Kane is a generational goal scorer. I believe though that England will never win a tournament with Kane. The refrain for many years has been that England are too slow in possession, need to be more decisive. I think when your centre forward can’t run, understand when your CMs get the ball they have nothing to hit. It entirely removes speedy transitions & makes you a team that needs slow build up possession. England had little variety to their play throughout the tournament. Kane is a goalscorer & of course I would start him, but in the 2nd half (well the whole game really), Kane was terrible & didn’t enable us to get up the pitch. After the goal we had zero out ball & it felt like we were back in Beckham/Eriksson territory where the star player is protected. Tbh Kane was poor against Norway & ineffectual v Mexico. Tonight’s loss was self inflicted with poor substitutions, Tuchel should take the blame for that.

Was worse than Southgate frankly as gareth would not have taken off every attacking player and played a team of defenders with a slow Kane up front so no out ball and Bellingham and Anderson chasing shadows. Gareth was often too defensive to start a game such as against Italy in the Final as opposed to throwing every defender we had on the pitch.

 

[Wooburn Bee]

Hmm, "so much more attacking and enjoyable" was it?

Of course we all remember the glorious 4-1 victory over Netherlands in the Group games, but how many hark back to the opening game, when England drew 1-1 with, er, Switzerland?

While England were very average indeed in the first knock-out game (Quarter Finals) against Spain, but managed to draw 0-0 and scrape through after AET and penalties.

I was at that Spain game and I certainly don't remember it being attacking etc. As it happens, I was also at the following game vs Germany, and while that was a real roller-coaster, ultimately England lost.

Yet despite Venables falling at the same fence as Tuchel, and in a "lesser" tournament on home soil, I still thought it a shocking decision of the FA to dispense with his services immediately after.

I honestly don't see TT's position being much different.

We were the better team versus Germany and lost on lottery of penalties but play that game over five times we would have won four of them. The lottery of cup football unfortunately. Tonight we surrendered when had them on ropes. Kept formation brought on fresh legs and would have scored again.

 

[Gawain]

We were the better team versus Germany and lost on lottery of penalties

And iirc England were the weaker team against Spain, before winning on the lottery of penalties.

"You pays your money, you takes your choice."

 

[jbee]

Hopefully the end of Kane era, great goal scorer but so slow in transition, and probably kept us from progressing, these days pace creates chances

He has scored 72 goals for club and country this season. 72.

 

[AlwaysBees]

And won the Bundesliga, but nothing else really, probably the fewest touches in the last 2 games than anyone, not what you need and also poor in the euros, let’s hope Bellingham can step up, does have pace.

 

[IGYBee]

Should be sacked asap. Warburton appointed interim manager.

 

[brentfordfc4ever]

Tuchel has to go. Not even Southgate would have shut up shop with 30 minutes to go. Unbelievable.

 

[Bee1895]

Hopefully the end of Kane era, great goal scorer but so slow in transition, and probably kept us from progressing, these days pace creates chances

That's beyond stupid, he's been breaking scoring records for years now. Best forward in the history of Team England, probably.

 

[-superbees2k3-]

Hopefully the end of Kane era, great goal scorer but so slow in transition, and probably kept us from progressing, these days pace creates chances

You mean like the French forwards who just failed to score in the other semi?

 

[Hullbee]

Hopefully the end of Kane era, great goal scorer but so slow in transition, and probably kept us from progressing, these days pace creates chances

Have watched Messi walk around I have to disagree about the pace winning games

 

[Beelieve!]

After a night of sleep I’m more pissed off than ever
But he has to get another chance
Can’t sack him now

 

[Chomp]

Who would we replace him with?

Liam Rosenoir - We need to be shown how to respect the ball.

 

[I'll Bee Damned]

TT let his players down last night. I think he will struggle to get them back onside quickly and may never rebuild their trust

After a period of reflection, the depth of the players feeling towards TT may well be the barometer of his likelihood of keeping his job.

 

[Hippobee]

Terry Venables was a truly great manager, no doubt. But he'd been a very accomplished manager for 16 years before getting the England gig; managed England for nearly the same number of games as TT (23 vs 21); and had Shearer and Gazza as his Kane and Bellingham. Yet he still "only" got to the semi-finals of the Euro's - pretty much the same as what TT has done, only with home advantage and no reigning world champions to face.

Would you have sacked El Tel for "failing", too?

No-one felt that the Venables England side under achieved. Some great football played from a side that didn't make the WC 2 years earlier. We were just unlucky against Germany. I haven't seen any great football from Tuchel's England in the knockout stages.

There was no bad luck last night. It was another turgid performance where we created nothing except the goal. We were not great even before the suicide subs. Yet again, we stopped running at defenders after 20 minutes. We were being pummelled in the last 20 mins and they could have scored 5.

We'll never know if Venables had stayed whether we might have won something. What I do know is that 20, 30 and 40 years later, many club and international ex players say he was the most innovative coach they played under. Will anyone say that about Tuchel in 10 years? I think we know the answer.

He won't be fired, but last night was rubbish, like the game before.

 

[Hullbee]

No-one felt that the Venables England side under achieved. Some great football played from a side that didn't make the WC 2 years earlier. We were just unlucky against Germany. I haven't seen any great football from Tuchel's England in the knockout stages.

There was no bad luck last night. It was another turgid performance where we created nothing except the goal. We were not great even before the suicide subs. Yet again, we stopped running at defenders after 20 minutes. We were being pummelled in the last 20 mins and they could have scored 5.

We'll never know if Venables had stayed whether we might have won something. What I do know is that 20, 30 and 40 years later, many club and international ex players say he was the most innovative coach they played under. Will anyone say that about Tuchel in 10 years? I think we know the answer.

He won't be fired, but last night was rubbish, like the game before.

Wasn’t venables leaving more to do with his questionable off field activities… also amazes me hoddle doesn’t get any recognition

 

[Hippobee]

Wasn’t venables leaving more to do with his questionable off field activities… also amazes me hoddle doesn’t get any recognition

Correct. Nothing proven, but the suits at the FA didn't want to extend his contract. Agree with Hoddle, although he shot himself in the foot with his disability comments. That Hoddle 1998 side were also unlucky. That wonderful Owen goal and we still took it to them with 10 men and attacked.

12% possession last night after our goal says it all. They had players on yellow cards after our goal, yet we failed to attack and put them under any pressure whatsoever.

Let's face it, with the exception of the Croatia game, Tuchel's England were a boring watch.

 

[djheavens]

Tuchel got it badly wrong and has to accept the criticism that comes his way .. the game was there and we should have gone for the jugular

 

[WarrenBee]

Has he gone yet?

 

[hanworthbee]

How does a highly paid coach not see what the rest of us watching on TV can see that we had no outlet

 

[ruislip bee]

In what world are Raya, Sideshow Bob, Romero, Porro and Martinez attacking players?

Raya starts many attacks. Agree about the others.

 

[Jay Bee]

tournament football really is about going for it

It absolutely isn't. A lot of knock out games are tight cagey contests won by the team that makes the fewest mistakes.

You might want to watch something more fun than that, as a break from domestic football stress, but it doesn't change the way international football is.

 

[Untouchable]

also amazes me hoddle doesn’t get any recognition

Some of us think he’s a bit of a **** because of his comments about disabled people.

 

[Bristolian Bee]

Harry having a guarded dig in his interview

What did he say

Anyone?

 

[grepo]

No country has won the World Cup with a foreign manager and long may that continue. Goodbye and good riddance, Tuchel.

 

[LongLostBee]

After a night of sleep I’m more pissed off than ever
But he has to get another chance
Can’t sack him now

Definitely.
The players let him down.
He clearly can't change their mentality overnight.
Still, it's been a better watch than under Southgate, pretty much all of the time.

However, if people give Tuchel loads of sh*t, I think he'll walk, and it will be a bad thing for us.

 

[Old B]

I think we also need to accept that the squad depth isn’t quite strong enough. Our bench a little weak, especially with injury/illness and it was square pegs for round holes (where have I heard that before?). There is only so much Jude can do.

 

[B2B]

I think we also need to accept that the squad depth isn’t quite strong enough. Our bench a little weak, especially with injury/illness and it was square pegs for round holes (where have I heard that before?). There is only so much Jude can do.

Surely that comes down to squad selection? Taking injured and injury prone players reduces options further...

 

[longtimeagobee]

Anyone?

Just listened to them again & maybe I read too much into it. Not sure if it was a dig now
Very diplomatic is Harry.

 

[Sandybee]

What's that got to do with anything.

You compared Tuchel to a "new, young player coming through.. needing to learn the game" that's just not the case at all.
Majority of football fans knew exactly what would happen when making those subs, it happened. A manager of his experience should not be making those mistakes in such big games.

The Argies were one down and had nothing to lose, so had to attack. We were one up and chose to defend, even though we had a few choices. But even so, our single choice was far too blatant, far too predictable, and far too robotic, which gave the Argies nothing to think about, and in addition, we gave ourselves plenty of time to play right into their hands, which we did so effectively. It was all so predictable when you look at it like that, and not necessarily what you want in a manager.

 

[I'll Bee Damned]

Another concern is the inconsistency of approach. He was rightly praised for the half time team talk against Croatia....

• "I don't care if we lose, but if we lose, we're going to lose on our terms playing our way...". He told them to "take the shackles off" and assured them that no matter the final result, his belief in their ability to play the best English football remained.

What changed for the Argentina second half decision making?

 

[Owlsmoor_Bee]

Another concern is the inconsistency of approach. He was rightly praised for the half time team talk against Croatia....

• "I don't care if we lose, but if we lose, we're going to lose on our terms playing our way...". He told them to "take the shackles off" and assured them that no matter the final result, his belief in their ability to play the best English football remained.

What changed for the Argentina second half decision making?

In short, he bottled it.

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

Another concern is the inconsistency of approach. He was rightly praised for the half time team talk against Croatia....

• "I don't care if we lose, but if we lose, we're going to lose on our terms playing our way...". He told them to "take the shackles off" and assured them that no matter the final result, his belief in their ability to play the best English football remained.

What changed for the Argentina second half decision making?

Called losing your bottle.

 

[Isleworth_Bee]

Definitely.
The players let him down.
He clearly can't change their mentality overnight.
Still, it's been a better watch than under Southgate, pretty much all of the time.

However, if people give Tuchel loads of sh*t, I think he'll walk, and it will be a bad thing for us.

Where do we have to send this please?

 

[Vid]

At Brentford incoming coaches have to play the owners way. We all know the owner. With England the real people in charge never get called out. Those are the ones we need to get rid of.

 

[IslandBee]

Too many wrong decisions IMO

1/ Wasting too much of the preparation time trying out players rather than developing strong team relationships, particularly in important positions (ie right back/ right winger etc). We lacked cohesion throughout the tournament and the reason is pretty obvious
2/ Too many wrong choices in the squad: Why was Mainoo even there? Why was Wharton ignored? How useful would the dynamism and pace of Gibbs-White have been second half last night and in other games? You don't waste a squad place on a player picked to take penalties or to throw on in desperation in injury time!
3/ Persisting too long with players who were clearly not fit - Saka, Rice, James etc. This obviously relates to squad choice
4/ And then there is last night!! The Konsa/Gordon sub was a disaster: we lost our paciest player, massively reducing our threat on the break, and the players' natural tendency in such situations to drop deep was strongly reinforced. We then went to six defenders, one midfielder (a defensive one) and three (very tired) attackers!! Argentina faced no threat at all and it was completely obvious they would score at least an equaliser!

It is easy to blame players but, as was clear in the Mexico game particularly, I think they gave just about everything they were able to give.

Overall, they have been ill-served by their coach and his team, and I would get rid.

 

[Kingston Bee]

Too many wrong decisions IMO

1/ Wasting too much of the preparation time trying out players rather than developing strong team relationships, particularly in important positions (ie right back/ right winger etc). We lacked cohesion throughout the tournament and the reason is pretty obvious
2/ Too many wrong choices in the squad: Why was Mainoo even there? Why was Wharton ignored? How useful would the dynamism and pace of Gibbs-White have been second half last night and in other games? You don't waste a squad place on a player picked to take penalties or to throw on in desperation in injury time!
3/ Persisting too long with players who were clearly not fit - Saka, Rice, James etc. This obviously relates to squad choice
4/ And then there is last night!! The Konsa/Gordon sub was a disaster: we lost our paciest player, massively reducing our threat on the break, and the players' natural tendency in such situations to drop deep was strongly reinforced. We then went to six defenders, one midfielder (a defensive one) and three (very tired) attackers!! Argentina faced no threat at all and it was completely obvious they would score at least an equaliser!

It is easy to blame players but, as was clear in the Mexico game particularly, I think they gave just about everything they were able to give.

Overall, they have been ill-served by their coach and his team, and I would get rid.

Ok so who would you like yo replace TT.

 

[hanworthbee]

Another concern is the inconsistency of approach. He was rightly praised for the half time team talk against Croatia....

• "I don't care if we lose, but if we lose, we're going to lose on our terms playing our way...". He told them to "take the shackles off" and assured them that no matter the final result, his belief in their ability to play the best English football remained.

What changed for the Argentina second half decision making?

He thought we did it Vs Mexico who had a championship striker with half a head upfront and it would work against three quality strikers in Messi, Alvarez and Lautaro

 

[djheavens]

I think we also need to accept that the squad depth isn’t quite strong enough. Our bench a little weak, especially with injury/illness and it was square pegs for round holes (where have I heard that before?). There is only so much Jude can do.

The game was crying out for Rashford and Saka to come on and turn Argentina around . Best fit of defence is attack. He was sooooo negative Tuchel and got it badly wrong

 

[Ghost]

Too many wrong decisions IMO

1/ Wasting too much of the preparation time trying out players rather than developing strong team relationships, particularly in important positions (ie right back/ right winger etc). We lacked cohesion throughout the tournament and the reason is pretty obvious
2/ Too many wrong choices in the squad: Why was Mainoo even there? Why was Wharton ignored? How useful would the dynamism and pace of Gibbs-White have been second half last night and in other games? You don't waste a squad place on a player picked to take penalties or to throw on in desperation in injury time!
3/ Persisting too long with players who were clearly not fit - Saka, Rice, James etc. This obviously relates to squad choice
4/ And then there is last night!! The Konsa/Gordon sub was a disaster: we lost our paciest player, massively reducing our threat on the break, and the players' natural tendency in such situations to drop deep was strongly reinforced. We then went to six defenders, one midfielder (a defensive one) and three (very tired) attackers!! Argentina faced no threat at all and it was completely obvious they would score at least an equaliser!

It is easy to blame players but, as was clear in the Mexico game particularly, I think they gave just about everything they were able to give.

Overall, they have been ill-served by their coach and his team, and I would get rid.

Not taking Gibbs-White after the season he had is indefensible. I also said it pre-tournament, so not sour grapes, just bizarre.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Not taking Gibbs-White after the season he had is indefensible. I also said it pre-tournament, so not sour grapes, just bizarre.

Not playing Watkins for a single minute considering how he ended the season was also odd.

 

[GlasgowBee]

So easy to criticise, I notice the likes of Big Sam giving it what he would have done, safe in the knowledge that with him in charge we would never have got out the group stages or maybe not even qualified.

If I am right Argentina (the world ranked no.1) put on more attacking players, it could be logical to counter that with trying to shore up the back more. It didnt really work, but he would also have been slated for not shoribg up the back if tge result ended the same. Ifs buts and maybes win the day. It was a good match, least we had a semi!