West Stand - A Call to Arms
Hold on. You can't leave it to me (presumably an "inner circle"). You were going to tell me how to moderate this site. Now when you had your chance you piss off. Oh well.
West Stand - A Call to Arms
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Bill Benn
Well-known member
New Old Bee
Member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
So got on board for a bit of glory hunting as we got promoted to the (now) Championship then? And never supported another team before? No flag, ballon or inflatable waving in those days either. No wait, here's a video from Peterborough...
Pot - Kettle - Black
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Are you saying you were a Peterbrough fan? What have I missed?
New Old Bee
Member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
The video, obviously.
No, Bees fan since 69/70. Thought I was Chelsea (as a school kid you picked a team which were doing well at the time) until I was taken to GP & saw and heard the Royal Oak
West Stand - A Call to Arms
When rebus says he's on his final warning, it's not from us.
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Would you (and others) not be better taking up rebus's behaviour with him rather than the moderators?
West Stand - A Call to Arms
My mind was actually boggling at the myriad potential warners.
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coconino
Well-known member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
sorry mate, I’ve only just seen your other postToo soon !!
Ashford Bees
Active member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Opinions yes, but slander and deformation of character are not on and could suffer legal consequencesOpinions are allowed, even when they're wrong
Lionel Bart-At
formerly known as 'heavywoollenbee'
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Farnham Women had a drum on Sunday, but no clappers, so far as I could see. Several hundred in attendance. :tapsnose:
This marketing data is supplied FOC.
AB
Well-known member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Also, IIRC the Ultras have disbanded this season in protest at something or other about the club.
Lionel Bart-At
formerly known as 'heavywoollenbee'
PLE
https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/premieryoungplants
Leicester Bee
Active member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
As much as I find the methods and tone of Chapman's posts fairly nasty, there is an element of truth in what he says.
I have said before that I am not a massive fan of the flags. But, I don't dictate what happens, and clearly a lot of fans like them. Who am I to say how fans should enjoy themselves?
Do they impact the atmosphere? Pre-match, for sure.
Will it impact the match? Not in my opinion, but I'm sure the players have a different opinion. At least the club captain has a positive opinion on this.
Does what happens on the pitch play the most important factor in match atmosphere? Yes, because fast attacking football, goal mouth action, controversial moments, creates the atmosphere.
For me, culturally, we are pining for something that has dissipated over many years. The game is not a working class game that is affordable anymore. Culturally, people have changed and want to be entertained. Being a football supporter, for many, seems to be a case of rocking up and getting value for money. Brentford is less the heartbeat of the community than decades ago. I believe we have around 400 season ticket holders who are aged between 18-24. The Premier League (although I stand to be corrected) has around 4-5% of fans who are 18-24 who are season ticket holders.
When I first started going to watch Brentford, the crowd was very different to now. Yes, there were plenty of games with only 4500 fans in attendance, with a fairly dull atmosphere. But, the congregated fans in the New Road made attempts to sing or chant something, even if it was for their own entertainment. Those who wanted to sing, congregated together. As my confidence grew, I shuffled closer to them, so I could be a part of it and sing with them. A lot of these fans were fairly young, say between 16-30. We were paying £4-6 to watch a game and rock up on the day to get through the turnstiles.
Football in Division 3 and 4 was not as entertaining, but we were there, watching some pretty awful football at times. Of the 4200 fans at Griffin Park, everyone really cared about the club. They were engaged. My first away day at Elm Park saw us pack out the away end. I'll never forget how united the fans were. But the game was a full affair, and the match atmosphere was pretty rubbish in the end. But I didn't care. I felt like I belonged. I felt like a part of the tribe. And every away game I went to, even if there were less than 100 of us, the more the regulars took me in and made me feel invested in the club.
But now, everything is different. Football is expensive. We have a fair number of customers who turn up and don't really care that much about our club. We have an ageing fanbase with young fans priced out of attending. I feel very much a part of our club because of my involvement outside of the stadium and because I know so many fans from having travelled home and away for decades. But for a newer fan, who wants to get involved, feel the same way I felt....how do they do that? They could be stuck in a pocket in the West Stand where fans don't really sing. The confidence you need to have to start up a chant, needs to be immense. And you need singers around you.
We don't have the culture to sing anymore, which is where I do agree with Rebus that by and large, what happens on the pitch is what determines the atmosphere.
But finally, and it's the biggest point for me: The best atmosphere comes from engagement with away fans. Hate Corner remains legendary for the simple reason that we sang songs AT the away fans and they did it back. That generated a lot of atmosphere because we were not reacting to what was happening on the pitch, but to the away fans. Currently, we are so far away from the away fans, it's destroyed any ability to generate any atmosphere other than through what's happening on the pitch.
As a proper final point, I'd much rather the flags were produced by a Brentford fan. I;m fairly sure we got mates' rates too. So I'm ok with that. And Gary has been coming to Brentford for many many years, and even if he does support Arsenal too, I know he is far far more engaged with Brentford than Arsenal. He's not the only one who has become an avid Brentford fan, despite supporting another club in the past.
I have said before that I am not a massive fan of the flags. But, I don't dictate what happens, and clearly a lot of fans like them. Who am I to say how fans should enjoy themselves?
Do they impact the atmosphere? Pre-match, for sure.
Will it impact the match? Not in my opinion, but I'm sure the players have a different opinion. At least the club captain has a positive opinion on this.
Does what happens on the pitch play the most important factor in match atmosphere? Yes, because fast attacking football, goal mouth action, controversial moments, creates the atmosphere.
For me, culturally, we are pining for something that has dissipated over many years. The game is not a working class game that is affordable anymore. Culturally, people have changed and want to be entertained. Being a football supporter, for many, seems to be a case of rocking up and getting value for money. Brentford is less the heartbeat of the community than decades ago. I believe we have around 400 season ticket holders who are aged between 18-24. The Premier League (although I stand to be corrected) has around 4-5% of fans who are 18-24 who are season ticket holders.
When I first started going to watch Brentford, the crowd was very different to now. Yes, there were plenty of games with only 4500 fans in attendance, with a fairly dull atmosphere. But, the congregated fans in the New Road made attempts to sing or chant something, even if it was for their own entertainment. Those who wanted to sing, congregated together. As my confidence grew, I shuffled closer to them, so I could be a part of it and sing with them. A lot of these fans were fairly young, say between 16-30. We were paying £4-6 to watch a game and rock up on the day to get through the turnstiles.
Football in Division 3 and 4 was not as entertaining, but we were there, watching some pretty awful football at times. Of the 4200 fans at Griffin Park, everyone really cared about the club. They were engaged. My first away day at Elm Park saw us pack out the away end. I'll never forget how united the fans were. But the game was a full affair, and the match atmosphere was pretty rubbish in the end. But I didn't care. I felt like I belonged. I felt like a part of the tribe. And every away game I went to, even if there were less than 100 of us, the more the regulars took me in and made me feel invested in the club.
But now, everything is different. Football is expensive. We have a fair number of customers who turn up and don't really care that much about our club. We have an ageing fanbase with young fans priced out of attending. I feel very much a part of our club because of my involvement outside of the stadium and because I know so many fans from having travelled home and away for decades. But for a newer fan, who wants to get involved, feel the same way I felt....how do they do that? They could be stuck in a pocket in the West Stand where fans don't really sing. The confidence you need to have to start up a chant, needs to be immense. And you need singers around you.
We don't have the culture to sing anymore, which is where I do agree with Rebus that by and large, what happens on the pitch is what determines the atmosphere.
But finally, and it's the biggest point for me: The best atmosphere comes from engagement with away fans. Hate Corner remains legendary for the simple reason that we sang songs AT the away fans and they did it back. That generated a lot of atmosphere because we were not reacting to what was happening on the pitch, but to the away fans. Currently, we are so far away from the away fans, it's destroyed any ability to generate any atmosphere other than through what's happening on the pitch.
As a proper final point, I'd much rather the flags were produced by a Brentford fan. I;m fairly sure we got mates' rates too. So I'm ok with that. And Gary has been coming to Brentford for many many years, and even if he does support Arsenal too, I know he is far far more engaged with Brentford than Arsenal. He's not the only one who has become an avid Brentford fan, despite supporting another club in the past.
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Bill Benn
Well-known member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
As someone who has been on a similar journey over the years I agree with all your points.Good post
spirebee
Active member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Good post, took me back. Loved HC. I can remember that sometimes the atmos at GP would be up for bigger games, pre KO. So not always about the on pitch action. But you make an eloquent case for why these days that is the case and agree with those points. The youth/energy has been drained out.
In relation to the flags, I live abroad so watch most games on the telly. They may or may not add anything to the match day atmos there, but on screen they look great. The cameras really dwell on them, pre match especially. So it's possible this in itself might catch the imagination of some younger fans and encourage attendance. Who knows? Certainly improves our 'presentation' and how we come across as a fanset on the box - which is where far more people will be viewing than in actual attendance. So arguably there is a wider audience to consider here too.
Paulo Bee
I like a man who grins when he fights...
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Tbh I haven't posted on here for years, mainly due to these sorts of posts. But this isn't fair. Everyone is entitled to an opinion re: flags and atmosphere. Personally I quite like it, its different and the players and club seem to think it makes a difference. Looks good as well IMO. Thats just my opinion. As valid as anyone elses.
What is below the belt is accusing someone of 'back-pocketing' the funds and making claims that are factually untrue. I know you and don't get where this coming from other than you seem to want to rattle cages and upset people on here. There are a lot of fan's supporters groups who benefit commercially (Beesotted as another example). You have no evidence or facts to back this up and that not right. Its damaging and is not 100% not true.
Also, Gary has been coming to Brentford since his early teens, He grew up locally, his Dad supports Arsenal and he has always followed both clubs. He's been attending games for over 20 years. He now brings his kids most weeks and they are Brentford fans. This has always been the case and you know that. Feels like a cheap shot and isn't fair.
rogercross
Member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Quick summary Rebus does not like flags, he loves Gary but not his flag shop or back pocket, he doesn’t have a colostomy bag but does seem to spout quite a lot of sh*t.
coconino
Well-known member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Can you offer this service for other threads too?
Tek a bow sonAB
Well-known member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Good context and I agree with much of it.
It is worth also considering the differences in numbers and demographics. I don’t think it is just that there was once a singing culture and that’s gone. I don’t think it’s here really a class/money issue either.
Back in the day at GP we most often did not have a very loud crowd. We remember the instances where the atmosphere was great and forget the games where it was flat. Hate Corner had a few hundred people in it. The same number making the same noise now in E215 and 115 would be barely heard in S101. The folks who were in it then are likely to be over-represented on here and the youngest of them over 40 now, more sitting in more sedate parts of Gtech.
Atmosphere has to come from us and like it or not that means from the “New Brentford” majority because aside from those who went together to West, the rest of “Old Brentford” chose nice seats in North and South specifically to prioritise good side on views over experiencing and contributing to atmosphere.
If new fans are less working class and richer that is quite a lot down to our collective decision to keep protecting longer term STH fans’ interests by fighting increases to ST pricing. I was slightly shocked to find that getting my student son an U25 ticket to West for Chelsea now cost £45. At full adult price it’s not far short of double my ST. This may explain why our 18-25 fan base is small and misses out a lot of those like us on here who were that age when first becoming die hard singing fans home and away.
DizzeeRascal
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West Stand - A Call to Arms
It's a good point around atmosphere suffering due to the distance between the away end and the West Stand. Being close to the opposition fans improves it massively as you bounce off each other. I guess there's no way it changes now due to the way the stadium has been planned but I think if the West Stand and the away end were next to each other it wouldn't be as flat so often.
Leicester Bee
Active member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
- I disagree slightly. It's not a case of there was once a singing culture and that's gone. It's a case of there was a singing culture, and it's vastly reduced now for the reasons I've stated. Terrace culture, pricing out fans, more local fans being vested in the club than now.
- Back in the day, it wasn't a case of being loud. 4500 fans are not that loud on a Tuesday evening in December, against Bradford City, who took down 200 fans. But the culture was there. A few hundred fans from an attendance of 4000, in my world where unicorns exist, could be over a thousand fans from an attendance of 17,000. There was a culture of singing. It's the same in most clubs in this country. A minority just sing away, and when the mass hysteria kicks in, the rest of the ground does too. Right now, there's a few hundred who try in the West Stand, but it doesn't spread around much unless the game warrants it. Which is why I partially agree with Rebus. But, I think something can be done about it.
Recreate HC in some way.
Offer cheaper brackets of season tickets along the lines of age groups. If an 18-25 year old is spending £500 on a season ticket, and if they want to move to the new HC for £250, then if I'm correct, around 1000 fans could take that up, meaning only a paltry £250k is lost in revenue. Advertise it, create hysteria around it, get the players to engage with the idea, and we could start to see a change in the culture.
To me, the flags is putting a plaster over the issue. I appreciate the efforts made, it's something that's worth doing, and many fans like it. But it's not getting to the root cause.
Make fans feel invested. Make a new HC and make it a place to stand like it's a badge of honour. 1000 younger fans on more affordable season tickets, with 1000 other fans who want to be a part of the new HC. I think that's the way forward, if it's logistically possible.
Leicester Bee
Active member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
I've heard there are, however, the army of volunteers required to put the flags together and put them in place is only so limited.
West Stand - A Call to Arms
With an extra £2,500 to spend on flags I'm expecting 10 each. Any fewer than that and I'm on the hunt for Gary's Lambo.
West Stand - A Call to Arms
The thing is the away end and the west stand are full every game so even though there is a distance between them,without any music,they would easily hear each other if both were in full voice.
The problem is we now have a sanitised match day experience and rivalry between fans singing nasty hurtful songs to each other will mess up our safe space.
Houghton Bee
Massive Member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Dont forget the club is so hard up these days they need to charge a transaction fee on tickets.
Les Beeavinu
Administrator
West Stand - A Call to Arms
I bet you rebus would even complain about smart initiatives like this
View: https://x.com/JimmyMu35984013/status/2097576097567129738
View: https://x.com/JimmyMu35984013/status/2097576097567129738
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Agree. Sole caveat. HC happened organically, no oversight or organisation from the club. May not be viewed as authentic or attractive to youth therefore if pushed by club now. Might be better if younger heads get together to DIY and drive this forward? Can't really manufacture culture. Don't mean to piss on your chips btw....concept is sound.
Mikey Bee
Not entirely serious
West Stand - A Call to Arms
With 42% off our first Turmeric subscription box, there's no excuse for us not funding this initiative and filling the stadium with flags.
Get involved, Brentford!
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Bin the generic, over loud pre-match muzakThe thing is the away end and the west stand are full every game so even though there is a distance between them,without any music,they would easily hear each other if both were in full voice.
The problem is we now have a sanitised match day experience and rivalry between fans singing nasty hurtful songs to each other will mess up our safe space.
West Stand - A Call to Arms
While we're at it,we all know the words to Hey Jude so just play the first few bars,turn it off and let us sing it rather than being drowned out by the music,one chorus without music isn't enough.
West Stand - A Call to Arms
I never get let her under your skin and into your heart right
TorbayBee
Back in Oxfordshire
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Any new ideas to generate atmosphere are great and I love the flags . However I fully accept it’s just a gesture whose impact will fade. However I absolutely disagree with the Rebus attitude, it was appalling , as a fan since ‘63 I carry the scars but I refuse to let bitterness and cynicism drive my attitudes. Atmosphere issues are something every EPL club talks about (except the newly promoted) . No club has a great atmosphere throughout the game and even those with larger crowds and a strongish pre match atmosphere have lost their impact eg Liverpool, Forest, Leeds. The Emirates has pretensions but it’s riding on the back of recent success - let’s see how long it lasts.
An atmosphere that is influenced by the game rather than the other way around is just a fact of EPL life.
An atmosphere that is influenced by the game rather than the other way around is just a fact of EPL life.
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Install a decibel meter, show the decibel level on the screen in the stands every now and then which will encourage the crowd to break the ‘crowd-o-meter’. Display previous record highs and how long the noise stayed at that level, and what games those highs happened in.
whoever is in control of it coming on screen can target duller moments to lift the crowd and which in turn might help the on field pitch performance.
whoever is in control of it coming on screen can target duller moments to lift the crowd and which in turn might help the on field pitch performance.
Sultan
Well-known member
West Stand - A Call to Arms
Hope not, another reason to get in the ground at 1 minute to kick off.
ruislip bee
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West Stand - A Call to Arms
Yep loads around us mix that up! Heart 1st skin 2nd!I never get let her under your skin and into your heart right
Edmundo
Whinging pom
West Stand - A Call to Arms
When it was sung without assistance from the PA, it was heart/start both times.