Manchester City Found Guilty Of FFP Breaches

[StevieSteve]

I believe banishment only hits the fans .

After listening to 606, can we punish them as much as possible please

 

[ziggys_human]

as I understand things:

a) they have a right to appeal (exercised)
b) the appeal has to have basis on the original facts upon what it drew its verdict, not new 'evidence' and new excuse
c) appealing just because you don't like/agree with decision is not valid
d) any appeal can be dismissed without being re-examined
e) cheating sympathisers can 'do one'

 

[hobbsy]

as I understand things:

a) they have a right to appeal (exercised)
b) the appeal has to have basis on the original facts upon what it drew its verdict, not new 'evidence' and new excuse
c) appealing just because you don't like/agree with decision is not valid
d) any appeal can be dismissed without being re-examined
e) cheating sympathisers can 'do one'

Yes, they and the Premier League can also appeal the punishment when that is announced.

 

[LongLostBee]

as I understand things:

a) they have a right to appeal (exercised)
b) the appeal has to have basis on the original facts upon what it drew its verdict, not new 'evidence' and new excuse
c) appealing just because you don't like/agree with decision is not valid
d) any appeal can be dismissed without being re-examined
e) cheating sympathisers can 'do one'

Thank you your honour

 

[ziggys_human]

Yes, they and the Premier League can also appeal the punishment when that is announced.

any punishment will be argued too lenient in the eyes of a manchester cheaty persuasion

 

[Wouldbee]

I wonder when they are going to release details of the punishments ? I imagine any announcement is being carefully considered in terms of timing. From now any game that they play in could find its results contested by the club who played them. What a mess.

 

[stevil]

as I understand things:

a) they have a right to appeal (exercised)
b) the appeal has to have basis on the original facts upon what it drew its verdict, not new 'evidence' and new excuse
c) appealing just because you don't like/agree with decision is not valid
d) any appeal can be dismissed without being re-examined
e) cheating sympathisers can 'do one'

Extra relegations for appeals deemed ‘frivolous’?

 

[Banana]

I wonder when they are going to release details of the punishments ? I imagine any announcement is being carefully considered in terms of timing. From now any game that they play in could find its results contested by the club who played them. What a mess.

It will be after any appeal. So months and months.

 

[Edmundo]

Have I missed anything to suggest that all this cheating suddenly stopped in 2018?

 

[Greybeard]

Have I missed anything to suggest that all this cheating suddenly stopped in 2018?

No and that's a very good point. Further investigations and charges could follow. I would be surprised if the PL weren't on that case now behind the scenes

 

[Wooburn Bee]

I was thinking 20 points a season for 3 years in the EPL - maroons them mid table at best.

Suspect they would still make champions league places even with 20 points deducted

 

[GuyBee]

No and that's a very good point. Further investigations and charges could follow. I would be surprised if the PL weren't on that case now behind the scenes

Wouldn't be surprised if that becomes a negotiation point, ie City propose accepting the punishment on condition that it is good for all activities up to 2026

 

[GuyBee]

This is too problematic.

The PL cannot force the EFL to impose a points deduction. Assuming Man City are relegated this season that creates a conditional punishment, assuming they are promoted back to the PL.

There is no precedent for this. It’s the type of punishment that ends tied up in legal arguments for years.

For the integrity of the PL, the punishment needs to stick first time and have no conditional attachments.

That is true but equaally there is no precedent for this level of cheating either

 

[JCMcBee]

I wonder when they are going to release details of the punishments ? I imagine any announcement is being carefully considered in terms of timing. From now any game that they play in could find its results contested by the club who played them. What a mess.

I was wondering about this too and the further problems created by MCFC fulfilling their fixtures this season.... the only way I can see to prevent this would be to suspend them while this whole matter is resolved... but I'm not sure where the EPL would stand legally with that.

 

[Jezybee]

Have I missed anything to suggest that all this cheating suddenly stopped in 2018?

Premier League first seeing if they can make the current charges stick? If yes, can move onto looking at more recent years. If no, still have these years that have not been adjudicated on and, if there was any rule breaking, find other angels to pursue it.
Speculation on my part, but if Man City somehow escape significant punishment for tranche 1 of charges, would feel like having something in reserve for another shot... or not if the feeling is an appropriate punishment will never be enforceable.

 

[hanworthbee]

Im sure they stopped cheating when they were charged in 2023

 

[Sianist]

Im sure they stopped cheating when they were charged in 2023

Given their insistence that a) they didn't cheat, and b) whatever they did that might've looked like cheating, is perfectly legal, I'm not so sure

 

[HMDBFC]

Wouldn't be surprised if that becomes a negotiation point, ie City propose accepting the punishment on condition that it is good for all activities up to 2026

Just NO

 

[Greybeard]

Wouldn't be surprised if that becomes a negotiation point, ie City propose accepting the punishment on condition that it is good for all activities up to 2026

That did cross my mind. A cloaked and unspoken threat that absolutely all parties will recognize.

 

[jonnamanuk]

Unlike law courts that have statutes, the PL will have to consider trade offs. For example, being seen to punish fans. Damaging its own product. What it’s done before. As an example, it has mitigated punishment for cooperation.
It has put in place transfer bans.
It has deducted points.

My hypothesis is that there will be a huge points fine, a huge financial fine, a transfer ban, and failing the owners for the fit and proper persons test.

This will force a sale of the club.

I also believe that they would then repeatedly fail the FFP of lower leagues, getting more fines and deductions .

As it stands I don’t think they can force the hand of the championship, and, Man City being there would likely hamper other clubs getting promoted.
That trade off is arguable in every league.

The new owners will start with their hands tied in at least the championship.

Due to the fine being part of squad costs and allowable losses, the mega fine will impact them for 3 years, meaning more fines and points deductions.

They should end up in league 2 after 3 years of constant humiliation.

 

[nick logan]

Unlike law courts that have statutes, the PL will have to consider trade offs. For example, being seen to punish fans. Damaging its own product. What it’s done before. As an example, it has mitigated punishment for cooperation.
It has put in place transfer bans.
It has deducted points.

My hypothesis is that there will be a huge points fine, a huge financial fine, a transfer ban, and failing the owners for the fit and proper persons test.

This will force a sale of the club.

I also believe that they would then repeatedly fail the FFP of lower leagues, getting more fines and deductions . Championship FFP rules are only £13m losses per season.

As it stands I don’t think they can force the hand of the championship, and, Man City being there would likely hamper other clubs getting promoted.
That trade off is arguable in every league.

The new owners will start with their hands tied in at least the championship.

They can’t go to championship

 

[Edmundo]

They can’t go to championship

They can if the punishment is simply a 100 points deduction this season. That will relegate them and the Championship has always accepted relegated teams.

 

[horshambees]

Why would that happen? UEFA let them off!

UEFA fined them and City were happy to pay the fine (£10 mill)

 

[ziggys_human]

if points penalty was argued down to, say, 114 points (1 for every proven charge), they'd carry over the uncleared deficit into championship season 27-28.
seems fair
they then are hard pushed to come back up at the first time of asking, given they'd probably still be at a minus at that season starting
also, eradicating the fears/objections of championship clubs over their own promotion chances

owners expelled
forced sale
players departing
happy days
city supporters cleansed

 

[Greybeard]

if points penalty was argued down to, say, 114 points (1 for every proven charge), they'd carry over the uncleared deficit into championship season 27-28.
seems fair
they then are hard pushed to come back up at the first time of asking, given they'd probably still be at a minus at that season starting
also, eradicating the fears/objections of championship clubs over their own promotion chances

owners expelled
forced sale
players departing
happy days
city supporters cleansed

The PL has no jurisdiction over the EFL. They can't impose a penalty on championship clubs.

 

[FlyBee]

Their bully boy tactics surely have to result in the absolute maximum penalty possible. Expelled from the football league and reapply to non league sounds fair at this point.

 

[Gazza Bee]

They can’t go to championship

Championship won't have them in a straight demotion but no choice if they are relegated this season due to a huge points deduction which seems the likely outcome.

 

[upnorthbee]

They can if the punishment is simply a 100 points deduction this season. That will relegate them and the Championship has always accepted relegated teams.

Gosh what a stupid number 100 is, literally means nothing and it'll be a massive let off for City. Not saying you're wrong Ed, I suspect you're right, I just hate these arbitrary numbers which mean nothing.

As this is unprecedented, I would love to see an expulsion for the premier league, and the EFL to accept them by putting them at the bottom of the pile in league 2 next season and for every team in the premier league ane EFL to finish one position higher this season.

Unprecedented has happened before of course, Covid reminded us that everyone has to be flexible at some stage. This isn't Covid, but the consequence on the integrity of the game in this country is comparable.

 

[jonnamanuk]

They can if the punishment is simply a 100 points deduction this season. That will relegate them and the Championship has always accepted relegated teams.

This is exactly what I meant.
They will then fail ffp in the championship as well as they are only allowed £13m average losses per year over 3years, but with their fine they will lose more points each year.

3 years of relegation.
Would be suitable punishment.

Our champions league push is on!

 

[Jezybee]

This is exactly what I meant.
They will then fail ffp in the championship as well as they are only allowed £13m average losses per year over 3years, but with their fine they will lose more points each year.

3 years of relegation.
Would be suitable punishment.

Our champions league push is on!

Championship now has Squad Cost Ratio rules, similar to the Premier League, rather than those you state above.

• The 85% Spending Cap: Clubs are restricted to spending a maximum of 85% of their total allowable income on player and manager-related costs (including wages, agent fees, and net transfer amortisation).

• Owner Top-Up Allowance: Instead of covering pure losses, owners are permitted a flexible equity injection allowance of £33 million over a three-year period (capped at a maximum of £15 million in a single season) to safely boost their club's allowable spending capacity.

• Real-Time Monitoring: Financial compliance is now reviewed in real-time via three submissions during the season rather than waiting for accounting periods to close at the end of the year.

Championship and League One Clubs approve changes to financial control rules

The Official home of the English Football League

www.efl.com

 

[hanworthbee]

Aslong as they come up at the first attempt from the champ it doesn't really matter if they fail all the financial rules there as once they are then in the PL they are out of reach for the efl

I personally don't want to see the club put out of business

 

[TorbayBee]

if points penalty was argued down to, say, 114 points (1 for every proven charge), they'd carry over the uncleared deficit into championship season 27-28.
seems fair
they then are hard pushed to come back up at the first time of asking, given they'd probably still be at a minus at that season starting
also, eradicating the fears/objections of championship clubs over their own promotion chances

owners expelled
forced sale
players departing
happy days
city supporters cleansed

What do you mean City supporters cleansed?

 

[TorbayBee]

Aslong as they come up at the first attempt from the champ it doesn't really matter if they fail all the financial rules there as once they are then in the PL they are out of reach for the efl

I personally don't want to see the club put out of business

Nor do I.
Hopefully common sense will prevail if and when a punishment is arrived at.

 

[Banana]

The Times is reporting that City's defence as presented to UEFA concerning the source of funds is, er, inconsistent with what they presented to this investigation.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Their other difficulty alongside any penalties for the previous misdemenaours is proving compliance now. They will presumably have to re-negotiate lots of players and business sponsors and prove that they now comply with financial regulations. If they are massively overpaying Haaland (for example) will they have to put him up for sale if he doesn't agree a new reduced contract?

 

[Edmundo]

Gosh what a stupid number 100 is, literally means nothing and it'll be a massive let off for City. Not saying you're wrong Ed, I suspect you're right, I just hate these arbitrary numbers which mean nothing.

I wasn’t proposing 100 points, merely using it as an example of how the Championship would have to accept a relegated club.

 

[JCMcBee]

An insight into what happened in Scotland...and although a different set of financial circumstances...the outcome in England perhaps might not be that dissimilar.

Administration and liquidation of the Rangers Football Club plc - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Greybeard]

I wasn’t proposing 100 points, merely using it as an example of how the Championship would have to accept a relegated club.

Yes, much simpler for city to be relegated than expelled.

 

[Greybeard]

Their bully boy tactics surely have to result in the absolute maximum penalty possible. Expelled from the football league and reapply to non league sounds fair at this point.

The PL can't expel them from the EFL.

 

[Green_bee]

View: https://x.com/UTD_Anna_/status/2107457494561746991/video/1

 

[FlyBee]

The PL can't expel them from the EFL.

No, but expulsion from EPL means theres no obligation on EFL to take them. Especially with hostile owners who are not fit and proper.

 

[Hippobee]

No, but expulsion from EPL means theres no obligation on EFL to take them. Especially with hostile owners who are not fit and proper.

Yep. This is the point. Although a relegation/ points deduction is the 'easy' way out for the PL, expelling them would be interesting. I'd really like to see it, but doubt it will happen this way.

Man C would have to go to the EFL begging to join. And they'd have no obligation to take them, which would not be the case with a relegation.

 

[Gee Bee]

Yep. This is the point. Although a relegation/ points deduction is the 'easy' way out for the PL, expelling them would be interesting. I'd really like to see it, but doubt it will happen this way.

Man C would have to go to the EFL begging to join. And they'd have no obligation to take them, which would not be the case with a relegation.

EFL if they did take them they’d have to start in league 2 and not affect promotion spots from National League.

 

[Garybaldbee]

Man C would have to go to the EFL begging to join. And they'd have no obligation to take them, which would not be the case with a relegation.

In that scenario they are just as likely to link up with Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG and a few Italian clubs and sail off on a pirate superleague adventure. I doubt very much that City's owners feel any instinctive loyalty to the concept of the English footballing pyramid.

 

[Hippobee]

In that scenario they are just as likely to link up with Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG and a few Italian clubs and sail off on a pirate superleague adventure. I doubt very much that City's owners feel any instinctive loyalty to the concept of the English footballing pyramid.

Good. They can f off and get on with it. Their fans will hate it and it'll be hard to compete with those teams if they get a half billion pound fine to go with it

 

[Sianist]

It appears to be well within the laws (was explored extensively doing the initial superleague lead balloon) that UEFA would be in their right to:

A) refuse their license to play any official matches in any league/tournaments directly or indirectly controlled or explicitly accepted by UEFA or it’s member FA’s (or rather, the other way around in their rule that a licensed team can only enter any of the pre-accepted tournaments (primarily domestic leagues and cups) or after getting an accept (usually fairly painless in cases of semi-friendly off-season mini tournaments)

B) that any player for such a team could be facing the same non-admission to being registered for their national team

 

[Untouchable]

Good. They can f off and get on with it. Their fans will hate it and it'll be hard to compete with those teams if they get a half billion pound fine to go with it

A breakaway league is a threat to the PL and the CL and more importantly the money that goes with those competitions.

That represents a threat to BFC so for that reason I’m out.

 

[TorbayBee]

A breakaway league is a threat to the PL and the CL and more importantly the money that goes with those competitions.

That represents a threat to BFC so for that reason I’m out.

Exactly.
it’s a complex mix/interdependence of multi national commercial, sporting and diplomatic interests. Once they start pulling a thread it’s very unclear what the impact could be or where it would end. Gone are the days when decisions made in the UK can be made in isolation. It’s times like this that make me sadly accept that this is a totally global commercial business (not just a sporting environment).
We seem unlikely participants at the top table in this world - amazing

 

[Untouchable]

We seem unlikely participants at the top table in this world - amazing

And long may it continue!

 

[Greybeard]

No, but expulsion from EPL means theres no obligation on EFL to take them. Especially with hostile owners who are not fit and proper.

Exactly. It won't happen.