Manchester City Found Guilty Of FFP Breaches

[stomalomalus]

There's no doubt that (let's call it) diplomacy is involved here.

Any PM of any party would have to naviagate this issue.

Nothing to do with our relationship with the EU, so let's make absolutely sure that othogonical subject is parked with it's bonnet into the space first

There is no way that they owners will be banned from owning a English club, whether they are advised that it is a "good idea" to apply for an annual license going forwards is a completely different thing however

Unfortunately, it kind of is...but that is a debate for a world economics forum and not a football one So...

I simply feel like from a football PoV, they need to take a stand, and surely any government interference in that process is against UEFAs rules and regs anyway? See the UEFA letter when the regulator concept was announced... https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/41270326/england-face-uefa-euro-ban-government-regulator

 

[HaylingBee74]

Why do we believe that qualifying for Europe will become easier for us.
Isnt there an expectation of English clubs losing Champions League spots over this?

 

[hanworthbee]

Why do we believe that qualifying for Europe will become easier for us.
Isnt there an expectation of English clubs losing Champions League spots over this?

We might lose a spot through coefficient as perhaps someone won't perform aswell but why would England lose a spot?

 

[Gazza Bee]

Why do we believe that qualifying for Europe will become easier for us.
Isnt there an expectation of English clubs losing Champions League spots over this?

Never heard that bring spoken as a possibility

 

[jbee]

Why do we believe that qualifying for Europe will become easier for us.
Isnt there an expectation of English clubs losing Champions League spots over this?

Why would that happen? UEFA let them off!

 

[TorbayBee]

My guess is that to avoid City taking the whole circus into years of court actions and counter actions a deal will be struck around the concept of
‘ City do not accept guilt but want to avoid extended delays for the common good’
‘We are willing to take a deal’
So the result is a fudge ‘ 20 points off this season, massive fine, transfer embargo for the rest of the season’
A one season impact, no personnel punished.
Hope not but fudges are sooooooo common.

 

[Gee Bee]

Never heard that bring spoken as a possibility

A 5th spot could be lost, but nothing to do with City issue

 

[King Bee]

My guess is that to avoid City taking the whole circus into years of court actions and counter actions a deal will be struck around the concept of
‘ City do not accept guilt but want to avoid extended delays for the common good’
‘We are willing to take a deal’
So the result is a fudge ‘ 20 points off this season, massive fine, transfer embargo for the rest of the season’
A one season impact, no personnel punished.
Hope not but fudges are sooooooo common.

The Government and EPL would then a put time limit on ownership of football clubs by state or state owned entities of say 2 years, allowing an orderly exit.

 

[hanworthbee]

That rui pinto tweet was a right let down

 

[King Bee]

The Government and EPL would then a put time limit on ownership of football clubs by state or state owned entities of say 2 years, allowing an orderly exit.

That said, I can’t see any resolution other than a points deduction guaranteed to lead to relegation that would satisfy other EPL and former EPL clubs that have been punished. This has tarnished the EPL so they need to be seen to getting their act in order.

 

[ziggys_human]

a very worthwhile watch


View: https://youtu.be/PHr_96hfszM?is=YbAi0WVeiTOYKMkN

 

[BS7Bee]

Sports lawyer on Radio 5 Live earlier saying that a source told him this could roll on for up to 5 years. That sounds ridiculous.

 

[WarrenBee]

Sports lawyer on Radio 5 Live earlier saying that a source told him this could roll on for up to 5 years. That sounds ridiculous.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. They are going to go down kicking and screaming and appeal everything. As I said in an earlier post, the only people who are going to well out of this are the lawyers.

 

[BS7Bee]

That wouldn't surprise me at all. They are going to go down kicking and screaming and appeal everything. As I said in an earlier post, the only people who are going to well out of this are the lawyers.

Yeah I was thinking the same. It's very important to cross all the Is and dot the Ts!

 

[upnorthbee]

Sports lawyer on Radio 5 Live earlier saying that a source told him this could roll on for up to 5 years. That sounds ridiculous.

Which part could roll on for 5 years sorry? The appeal or the punishment decision?

 

[80s Bee]

Which part could roll on for 5 years sorry? The appeal or the punishment decision?

The appeal has to be done by end of Jan according to PL rules.

 

[Hippobee]

Which part could roll on for 5 years sorry? The appeal or the punishment decision?

The multiple legal challenges resulting from both of the above.

 

[upnorthbee]

The multiple legal challenges resulting from both of the above.

So just to be clear, is the appeal and punisment expected to be delivered this season? And then they expect another 4-5 years of challenges against those decisions?

 

[Hippobee]

So just to be clear, is the appeal and punisment expected to be delivered this season? And then they expect another 4-5 years of challenges against those decisions?

I'm expecting it this season. And then challenges immediately put in, forbidding punishments and sanctions until these have been exhausted.

 

[80s Bee]

At what point do they think “the negative PR is too much, half the world think we are liars and cheats, let’s cut a deal to make it go away” ?

I know that sportswashing was never about showing the world they were nice guys.. more about building a global brand, a show of wealth and success and strength.. but surely there comes a point when the very mention of Man City / Etihad / Abu Dhabi is immediately associated with cheating, lying, dishonesty and bullying. Doesn’t that defeat the whole point of the project?

If they had cooperated with the investigations from the start, this would have been over years ago and largely forgotten by now.

 

[BS7Bee]

Which part could roll on for 5 years sorry? The appeal or the punishment decision?

The question the journalist didn't specify. She asked something along the lines of "How long do you think this will roll on for?"

 

[filmyfan]

The next stage will last 12 weeks (appeal hearing), then PL has 30 days to make the appeal findings public - so that takes us to end of Jan /early Feb 2027

Timescale after that is anyones guess

 

[JCMcBee]

That rui pinto tweet was a right let down

...yep...but can you imagine the uproar if he or one of his hacker community mates uncovers financial irregularities in another PL clubs accounts... doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[HaylingBee74]

We might lose a spot through coefficient as perhaps someone won't perform aswell but why would England lose a spot?

Thats what I wondered

 

[Sianist]

A good start if actually anywhere near true

Expulsion from Premier league and no admission into EFL (so National league is the top league they could possibly end up in), and forced removal/ban of the owners, directors and executives, and HMRC taking a good long look at if there's going to be taken further non-Football-related steps

 

[Jezybee]

A good start if actually anywhere near true

Expulsion from Premier league and no admission into EFL (so National league is the top league they could possibly end up in), and forced removal/ban of the owners, directors and executives, and HMRC taking a good long look at if there's going to be taken further non-Football-related steps

Don’t forget the fine, massive fine, that, until paid in full, precludes entry to any level of FA, or FA constituent body, administered league.

The whole appeals thing is somewhat of a distraction. Know it’s not a criminal case, yet, but appeals in general require grounds that point to an error of substance or process in the initial finding. “We don’t agree with you” isn’t an appeal. Man City need to point to specifically what the initial panel got wrong in their application of the rules.

 

[Untouchable]

Man City need to point to specifically what the initial panel got wrong in their application of the rules

The appeal appears to be framed on the basis that the panel got the facts wrong and everything else flows from that. I don’t fancy their chances. They’ve told too many different stories to be able to establish an error.

 

[SH]

The appeal appears to be framed on the basis that the panel got the facts wrong and everything else flows from that. I don’t fancy their chances. They’ve told too many different stories to be able to establish an error.

The independent commission made it beautifully clear that they found that a number of City witnesses knowingly gave false witness. For the appellate judges to find that the commissioners got the facts wrong, they'd have to overturn that basic finding. Good luck with that, amigos

 

[hanworthbee]

Good maybe it'll be a slightly reduced "sentence" if they stop with their threats etc

 

[Banana]

View: https://x.com/AdamClery/status/2106002038345838852?s=20

 

[ziggys_human]

a step up from intimidating a witness is intimidating a prosecution

 

[Jay Bee]

At what point do they think “the negative PR is too much, half the world think we are liars and cheats, let’s cut a deal to make it go away” ?

I know that sportswashing was never about showing the world they were nice guys.. more about building a global brand, a show of wealth and success and strength.. but surely there comes a point when the very mention of Man City / Etihad / Abu Dhabi is immediately associated with cheating, lying, dishonesty and bullying. Doesn’t that defeat the whole point of the project?

If they had cooperated with the investigations from the start, this would have been over years ago and largely forgotten by now.

Yee the cheating and dishonesty is not good for sportswashing at all. But they did it. And, they have doubled down for years and years and it's hard to see how they will "do a deal" at this stage after so much obstruction earlier.

I think already said on the thread... but if they'd been more honest and transparent there would not have been a football regulator with extra powers to sanction them either.

 

[SH]

A good start if actually anywhere near true

The podcast shown in this post really is good if you want to hear the full gory detail of City’s cheating:


View: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-transfers-podcast/id1746700466?i=1000792863403

 

[TorbayBee]

Heard on the radio some Sheffield United fan talking about their lost opportunity to be in the FA Cup Final when they lost to City ‘it would have been our first chance to play in Europe’.
Another example of teams thinking that if City had kept to the rules they would have been s..t. That’s nuts, They would have had a very strong competitive team , not as strong as they were but bloody strong. A very competitive team.

 

[Gee Bee]

Heard on the radio some Sheffield United fan talking about their lost opportunity to be in the FA Cup Final when they lost to City ‘it would have been our first chance to play in Europe’.
Another example of teams thinking that if City had kept to the rules they would have been s..t. That’s nuts, They would have had a very strong competitive team , not as strong as they were but bloody strong. A very competitive team.

But strong enough to reach a semi final?

 

[Sianist]

But strong enough to reach a semi final?

Something something, City beat us ergo we would've won if not for them?

 

[FlyBee]

Heard on the radio some Sheffield United fan talking about their lost opportunity to be in the FA Cup Final when they lost to City ‘it would have been our first chance to play in Europe’.
Another example of teams thinking that if City had kept to the rules they would have been s..t. That’s nuts, They would have had a very strong competitive team , not as strong as they were but bloody strong. A very competitive team.

It seems pretty reasonable to me that people react that way as its impossible to unpick how much better they actually were with the compound effect of cheating over such a long period of time.

It is the fact they've built such an absolute juggernaut of success that makes me want to see their expulsion from the entire football league. Any penalty which lets them benefit in any way from whats been created is not good enough. They deserve to lose the lot and the owners never to be involved in English football ever again.

Simple.

 

[Gee Bee]

Something something, City beat us ergo we would've won if not for them?

I’m not going down that road at all and don’t expect retrospective league and cup changes. A simple * against there achievements is better as their achievements will be forever tainted.
However there’s a likely hood that much of there success was built around being able to buy stock beyond there real means and helped considerably.
I do hope however that any tax evasion by them and individuals is not left with a *.

 

[TorbayBee]

It seems pretty reasonable to me that people react that way as its impossible to unpick how much better they actually were with the compound effect of cheating over such a long period of time.

It is the fact they've built such an absolute juggernaut of success that makes me want to see their expulsion from the entire football league. Any penalty which lets them benefit in any way from whats been created is not good enough. They deserve to lose the lot and the owners never to be involved in English football ever again.

Simple.

As always it’s about opinions. Mine is that they are the worst of a bad bunch, yes points deduction over 3 seasons, transfer embargo for 3 years , massive fine, owners banned. No to banishment as it really affects the long term fans who have done nothing wrong, the owners simply take thrir vanity project elsewhere.

 

[Hullbee]

As always it’s about opinions. Mine is that they are the worst of a bad bunch, yes points deduction over 3 seasons, transfer embargo for 3 years , massive fine, owners banned. No to banishment as it really affects the long term fans who have done nothing wrong, the owners simply take thrir vanity project elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with banishment loyal fans will stay loyal half and half scarf merchants will pick another glory team
Like Brentford

 

[Untouchable]

yes points deduction over 3 seasons

This is too problematic.

The PL cannot force the EFL to impose a points deduction. Assuming Man City are relegated this season that creates a conditional punishment, assuming they are promoted back to the PL.

There is no precedent for this. It’s the type of punishment that ends tied up in legal arguments for years.

For the integrity of the PL, the punishment needs to stick first time and have no conditional attachments.

 

[hanworthbee]

Lets see what happens at the appeal !

 

[Sianist]

Lets see what happens at the appeal !

Hopeful thinking is “deliberately and knowingly wasting time, additional fine for another charge of contempt”

 

[TorbayBee]

This is too problematic.

The PL cannot force the EFL to impose a points deduction. Assuming Man City are relegated this season that creates a conditional punishment, assuming they are promoted back to the PL.

There is no precedent for this. It’s the type of punishment that ends tied up in legal arguments for years.

For the integrity of the PL, the punishment needs to stick first time and have no conditional attachments.

I was thinking 20 points a season for 3 years in the EPL - maroons them mid table at best.

 

[TorbayBee]

Nothing wrong with banishment loyal fans will stay loyal half and half scarf merchants will pick another glory team
Like Brentford

I believe banishment only hits the fans . I am certainly in the minority here (maybe alone) but I think putting aside the current widespread and understandable blood lust /hatred of City what they did tilted things in their favour in terms of who they could buy but they still had to win the matches. This not about bribery/match fixing/ ref influence. They illicitly spent more money than anyone else. Wrong for sure, but it does not, as many have claimed, undermine the integrity of the EFL or the games played during the period under investigation. As I say this is not a popular view during this period of high emotional responses.

 

[SH]

I believe banishment only hits the fans . I am certainly in the minority here (maybe alone) but I think putting aside the current widespread and understandable blood lust /hatred of City what they did tilted things in their favour in terms of who they could buy but they still had to win the matches. This not about bribery/match fixing/ ref influence. They illicitly spent more money than anyone else. Wrong for sure, but it does not, as many have claimed, undermine the integrity of the EFL or the games played during the period under investigation. As I say this is not a popular view during this period of high emotional responses.

I think you're being incredibly charitable towards City TBH. For a decade, over 60% of their supposed income came from sham "revenue" (the dark blue in this chart). It's not as if it happened in the early days and then stopped: every single season they piled more and more dodgy cash into the machine. They were faking nearly as much revenue in 2017/18 (£135m) as Brentford achieved in total in their first season in the PL (£141m in 2021/22).

Without the fake funds, would they have been able to afford and attract Touré, Agüero, De Bruyne, let alone Pep? Not a chance. It's not bribery/match fixing/ref influence, but it 100% undermined the integrity of the EFL and every single game played during the decade to an incalculable degree.

 

[TorbayBee]

I think you're being incredibly charitable towards City TBH. For a decade, over 60% of their supposed income came from sham "revenue" (the dark blue in this chart). It's not as if it happened in the early days and then stopped: every single season they piled more and more dodgy cash into the machine. They were faking nearly as much revenue in 2017/18 (£135m) as Brentford achieved in total in their first season in the PL (£141m in 2021/22).

Without the fake funds, would they have been able to afford and attract Touré, Agüero, De Bruyne, let alone Pep? Not a chance. It's not bribery/match fixing/ref influence, but it 100% undermined the integrity of the EFL and every single game played during the decade to an incalculable degree.

View attachment 69536

I fully respect your assessment but mine is different. I am not sure all of the illicit money actually went on players, they spent a lot on the whole campus and the East Manchester regeneration. Maybe they could have afforded those players and Pep out of legal cash but that part of the project would have to be delayed. One thing I am sure of is that they would have had enough legal cash to buy a very strong team.
The key word to me in your post is 'incalculable' and that is the problem for me. The number of hypotheticals are huge, in that case I think the penalty should be harsh but not terminal to the club as some have suggested. As they say ,fair justice is built on allowing the dispassionate to set the punishment not the victims.

 

[Sianist]

I fully respect your assessment but mine is different. I am not sure all of the illicit money actually went on players, they spent a lot on the whole campus and the East Manchester regeneration.

Which as far as I understand the rules they could’ve done completely above board and not having it count against the clubs running costs

 

[TorbayBee]

Which as far as I understand the rules they could’ve done completely above board and not having it count against the clubs running costs

Yes I was not certain of how that worked so maybe it was all spent on players, seems a lot though.

 

[Banana]

I fully respect your assessment but mine is different. I am not sure all of the illicit money actually went on players, they spent a lot on the whole campus and the East Manchester regeneration. Maybe they could have afforded those players and Pep out of legal cash but that part of the project would have to be delayed. One thing I am sure of is that they would have had enough legal cash to buy a very strong team.
The key word to me in your post is 'incalculable' and that is the problem for me. The number of hypotheticals are huge, in that case I think the penalty should be harsh but not terminal to the club as some have suggested. As they say ,fair justice is built on allowing the dispassionate to set the punishment not the victims.

Those investments in the academy and other infrastructure are completely exempt from the owner spending money on these items. As is money spent in the community for instance.

So you can put that all that money to one side as it never entered the equation.