Igor Thiago (1 Viewer)

[petsknee]

I wonder what the outcome would have been if Thiago had dropped himself like a sack of spuds clutching his face when Chema shoulder barged him as he got up? Probably a yellow for simulation. I can't quite believe that I am still seething at the injustice of it all. No previous foul, yellow or sending off has played on my mind as much as this one.

On balance, I'd prefer to not win games than stoop to the level of the cheating and diving of the majority of our opposition. I think our players should negate the tactic by not being drawn into retaliation. It'll be hard for some who are naturally petulant or constantly playing with 75% red mist, but it's the only way I see this behaviour ending. Just don't do anything, no matter how much provocation there is.

 

[larrysigny]

Should we not encourage our players to react to the new trend of active provocation by just going to ground, no play acting just avoid the macho push and shove. Once it’s done just get up and get on with the game. In short manage the situation rather than react to it.

Should we not encourage our players to react to the new trend of active provocation by just going to ground, no play acting just avoid the macho push and shove. Once it’s done just get up and get on with the game. In short manage the situation rather than react to it.

Going to ground (ie layig down) would leave our players open to more yellow cards by today's inefficient refs. Maybe just kneel down for a second or two - not even Atwell could take that as simulation.

 

[badgerbee]

I wonder what the outcome would have been if Thiago had dropped himself like a sack of spuds clutching his face when Chema shoulder barged him as he got up? Probably a yellow for simulation. I can't quite believe that I am still seething at the injustice of it all. No previous foul, yellow or sending off has played on my mind as much as this one.

On balance, I'd prefer to not win games than stoop to the level of the cheating and diving of the majority of our opposition. I think our players should negate the tactic by not being drawn into retaliation. It'll be hard for some who are naturally petulant or constantly playing with 75% red mist, but it's the only way I see this behaviour ending. Just don't do anything, no matter how much provocation there is.

Similar suggestion/question could be asked of when Jacquet barged into YY in the Liverpool game, which ultimately also ended up with Bees player being sent off........

 

[LostBee]

You genuinely believe, having watched those incidents, there is a reasonable argument that they were hurt? Not a chance.

It's so clearly obvious to 99% of fans to see what is and isn't cheating, it shouldn't be difficult to go back an punish those who have cheated.

Do I believe that they were genuinely hurt? Of course not.

Can I prove it though? Unfortunately not.

Just like I cannot prove that Janelt wasn't hurt when he had a little roll around on the floor in the first half on Sunday, although I suspect not either.

In theory I agree with you completely but this is what you are dealing with and why it makes it nigh on impossible for the governing bodies to issue retrospective punishments.

They tried years ago to do something about diving when they gave a ban to an Arsenal player (Eduardo?) for throwing himself to the ground and winning an unjust penalty. Arsenal appealed it, showed that there had been the minutest little touch and simply said "Can you conclusively prove that this touch wasn't enough to unbalance a player running at full speed?" - the answer was no, the ban was rescinded and they gave up.

We as fans are completely complicit as well because we have all the energy in the world for opposition players when they go down easy etc but when its Dango throwing himself to the floor or Ivan Toney initiating contact for a penalty there is nothing but silence and a shrug.

 

[mhead bee]

I wonder what the outcome would have been if Thiago had dropped himself like a sack of spuds clutching his face when Chema shoulder barged him as he got up? Probably a yellow for simulation. I can't quite believe that I am still seething at the injustice of it all. No previous foul, yellow or sending off has played on my mind as much as this one.

On balance, I'd prefer to not win games than stoop to the level of the cheating and diving of the majority of our opposition. I think our players should negate the tactic by not being drawn into retaliation. It'll be hard for some who are naturally petulant or constantly playing with 75% red mist, but it's the only way I see this behaviour ending. Just don't do anything, no matter how much provocation there is.

You should be happy then, cos that is exactly what we do.

 

[Romt2]

Do I believe that they were genuinely hurt? Of course not.

Can I prove it though? Unfortunately not.

Just like I cannot prove that Janelt wasn't hurt when he had a little roll around on the floor in the first half on Sunday, although I suspect not either.

In theory I agree with you completely but this is what you are dealing with and why it makes it nigh on impossible for the governing bodies to issue retrospective punishments.

They tried years ago to do something about diving when they gave a ban to an Arsenal player (Eduardo?) for throwing himself to the ground and winning an unjust penalty. Arsenal appealed it, showed that there had been the minutest little touch and simply said "Can you conclusively prove that this touch wasn't enough to unbalance a player running at full speed?" - the answer was no, the ban was rescinded and they gave up.

We as fans are completely complicit as well because we have all the energy in the world for opposition players when they go down easy etc but when its Dango throwing himself to the floor or Ivan Toney initiating contact for a penalty there is nothing but silence and a shrug.

If the aim is to cut out the play acting then you just need to have the bar be "is this a reasonable response to the contact?" If the retrospective punishment is severe enough (I would suggest it be more severe than 3 games if you really want to stamp it out), then it will deter players as they will not want to get caught on the wrong side of the judgment. It will be unpopular with the fanbases of the first couple of players to receive a ban but it would stop pretty quickly and be better for the game as a whole.

 

[mhead bee]

They tried years ago to do something about diving when they gave a ban to an Arsenal player (Eduardo?) for throwing himself to the ground and winning an unjust penalty. Arsenal appealed it, showed that there had been the minutest little touch and simply said "Can you conclusively prove that this touch wasn't enough to unbalance a player running at full speed?" - the answer was no, the ban was rescinded and they gave up.

For some reason football is so inept at seeing these things through, they brought in that 10 yard thing from Rugby for descent, but only EVER enforced it when the keeper was on the 6 yard box so a goal kick became a kick on the D, utterly pointless and farcical when he stepped it out. Why not do it half way into the oppo half when it counts.

The current 5 seconds for a goal kick or a throw, nobody is bothered if it gets to 6 seconds as long as it isn't taking several mins wasting time, but most of the time the ref either forgets to do it or the count only starts when the bloke picks the ball up so he can waste a minute getting over there.

Likewise the bookings for approaching the ref, descent, stopping quick free kicks, tactical fouls, diving or kicking the ball away are totally random, you can see 3-4 in the same game and only one punished, then Janelt gets one and winds up with a second yellow. You wouldn't mind if they all got one.

Is it really that hard to apply the rules to everyone all the time, are refs intimidated by certain players?

 

[Leedsbee]

Really interested in the how Igor and Brentford deal with the situation now. Does Igor want a break, do the fitness coaches, psychologists etc want him to take one? His first year with the club with injuries and setbacks suggested a physical frailty a suggestion I would say has been completely dispelled by his record since. Showed last season what a warrior he is and how he relishes the battles. For me his all round game is improving all the time, his hold up play and work rate are great. Goal return has been markedly different but last season there were a lot of penaltys and nearly missed clear chances ( both his league goals this year fall into that category ). The Igor I want to see is the player that cooly dispatched the ball into the corner of the net away to Burnley. Technique, confidence, power , pride there's no doubt the club will totally support the big man finding his way back.

 

[Hippobee]

I wonder what the outcome would have been if Thiago had dropped himself like a sack of spuds clutching his face when Chema shoulder barged him as he got up? Probably a yellow for simulation. I can't quite believe that I am still seething at the injustice of it all. No previous foul, yellow or sending off has played on my mind as much as this one.

On balance, I'd prefer to not win games than stoop to the level of the cheating and diving of the majority of our opposition. I think our players should negate the tactic by not being drawn into retaliation. It'll be hard for some who are naturally petulant or constantly playing with 75% red mist, but it's the only way I see this behaviour ending. Just don't do anything, no matter how much provocation there is.

Slight difference.

When Chema got up, he had a cut lip. Thiago could have rolled around, but it wouldn't have done him much good. Not suggesting he didn't play act, but the once that contact was made the way it was and it was replayed, that was that.

I'm with you though - I don't want to win at all costs. Plenty are saying if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
I've lost a lot of love for football in recent years. I don't want my team to join the roll on the floor brigade.

 

[snowstormbee]

Sam Dean in the Telegraph has written a very good piece about the incident. It's quite long, this is some of it:

This is the season of Premier League aggro, where cheats prosper​

Here are two depressing lessons from the past few weeks of Premier League action: play-acting works, and deliberately needling your opponent could lead to significant benefits for your team.

This is becoming the season of provocation in the English top flight, where dishonesty is being routinely rewarded. The latest example came on Sunday, when Brentford’s Igor Thiago was shown a red card for “violent conduct” after a collision with Brighton midfielder Chema Andrés.

A recap of events: Andrés grips Thiago’s shirt while the Brentford forward has the ball, and then shoves Thiago in the chest. Thiago responds by brushing off Andrés with his arms. In doing so, one arm inadvertently makes contact with the Spaniard’s face. Andrés, unlike Thiago, uses this contact as an excuse to collapse to the turf in pretend agony. Thiago is shown a red card.

Thiago’s manager Keith Andrews felt aggrieved at his striker’s sending-off; it continued a pattern we have seen throughout this season, when the reaction of a provoked player has often been treated as a far more serious crime than the original action itself.

There was also a red card for another Brentford player, Yehor Yarmolyuk, in their recent game against Liverpool. On that occasion, Liverpool defender Jérémy Jacquet deliberately provoked Yarmolyuk by walking directly into him while the ball was out of play. When Yarmolyuk responded by nudging Jacquet with his chest, he also made slight contact with his forehead. Down went Jacquet, crumpled on the ground as if punched by Anthony Joshua, and out came the red card. By the laws of the game, it was the correct decision. But how grim it is for the sport that this is the case.

The blunt truth of the matter is this: the sight of a fully grown professional athlete writhing on the floor at the slightest contact is usually far more of a blight on the sport, and far more damaging to football’s reputation, than the supposedly “violent” act which triggered such a reaction. Viewers across the world will undoubtedly have been more offended by Andrés’s actions on Sunday than by Thiago’s, and yet it is the Brentford forward who will miss three matches. Deception and deviousness, it seems, have become necessary attributes in the modern game.

 

[Beestaps]

Unfortunately I think this red and the non penalty for Isak against Arsenal will lead to an increase (from an already high level) in diving and cheating as it’s proven to gain an advantage.

 

[badgerbee]

Sam Dean in the Telegraph has written a very good piece about the incident. It's quite long, this is some of it:

This is the season of Premier League aggro, where cheats prosper​

Here are two depressing lessons from the past few weeks of Premier League action: play-acting works, and deliberately needling your opponent could lead to significant benefits for your team.

This is becoming the season of provocation in the English top flight, where dishonesty is being routinely rewarded. The latest example came on Sunday, when Brentford’s Igor Thiago was shown a red card for “violent conduct” after a collision with Brighton midfielder Chema Andrés.

A recap of events: Andrés grips Thiago’s shirt while the Brentford forward has the ball, and then shoves Thiago in the chest. Thiago responds by brushing off Andrés with his arms. In doing so, one arm inadvertently makes contact with the Spaniard’s face. Andrés, unlike Thiago, uses this contact as an excuse to collapse to the turf in pretend agony. Thiago is shown a red card.

Thiago’s manager Keith Andrews felt aggrieved at his striker’s sending-off; it continued a pattern we have seen throughout this season, when the reaction of a provoked player has often been treated as a far more serious crime than the original action itself.

There was also a red card for another Brentford player, Yehor Yarmolyuk, in their recent game against Liverpool. On that occasion, Liverpool defender Jérémy Jacquet deliberately provoked Yarmolyuk by walking directly into him while the ball was out of play. When Yarmolyuk responded by nudging Jacquet with his chest, he also made slight contact with his forehead. Down went Jacquet, crumpled on the ground as if punched by Anthony Joshua, and out came the red card. By the laws of the game, it was the correct decision. But how grim it is for the sport that this is the case.

The blunt truth of the matter is this: the sight of a fully grown professional athlete writhing on the floor at the slightest contact is usually far more of a blight on the sport, and far more damaging to football’s reputation, than the supposedly “violent” act which triggered such a reaction. Viewers across the world will undoubtedly have been more offended by Andrés’s actions on Sunday than by Thiago’s, and yet it is the Brentford forward who will miss three matches. Deception and deviousness, it seems, have become necessary attributes in the modern game.

Very accurate summary of IT's and YY's 'offences' from an 'independent' viewpoint.
Hopefully a few on here that have been looking to throw our 2 under the bus might read it and take note...........

 

[BuzzingBee95]

Therefore the law needs changing

Take out the word “deliberate” and “negligible”.

Should be: ANY physical contact made by a player outside of challenging for the ball.

 

[SC]

All this talk of sin bins and yellow cards for simulation, nah, thats the wrong word, CHEATING. The solution is actually easy. Instant Red card for the obvious cases. The first few games might end up 8 a-side but teams and players will soon wise up that cheats actually do not prosper. FIFA introduced this back at the 2002 WC only for the fiasco of Rivaldo writhing around clutching his face when the ball had been kicked at his midrift. If they'd carried out their threats, sent him off and banned him from the WC, we wouldn't have this problem today. All it needs is for the Refs with the authorities backing to have the balls to do it. It really isn't difficult. Even if a ref (and VAR) miss it, give a retrospective ban.

 

[Les Beeavinu]

Regarding the increase in head injury simulation, one law that contributes to it is the perception that if a player receives a blow to the head, he is allowed to be treated but doesn't have to leave the field for 1 minute. Along with the interpretation of the violent conduct law around head contact, it seems that players are exploiting this as an easy way to get the game stopped and potentially an opponent in trouble. However, the law actually states that a player doesn't have to go off if "a severe injury has occurred, especially a head injury (e.g. concussion), cardiac issue or life-threatening event (e.g. seizure, choking etc.)".

One thing that referees need to do immediately is to ask the physio to always to come on to do a concussion check (safeguarding purposes) when a head injury is being indicated and make that player leave even if there has been only mild contact with the head.

 

[JCMcBee]

Very accurate summary of IT's and YY's 'offences' from an 'independent' viewpoint.
Hopefully a few on here that have been looking to throw our 2 under the bus might read it and take note...........

...indeed....and I guess I can understand the reactionary thing by some during and after a game...like Liverpool and Brighton games...is to essentially blame YY and IT and their actions for our defeats... it's how those individuals choose to deal with it....they blame and throw players of the team they support under the bus rather than looking at the bigger picture.... but thankfully those types are in the minority imo and their values and views don't represent the majority of BFC supporters or that of BFC itself....again.... physical aggressive and lack of discipline is not how anyone should be depicting BFC... because it's simply not true and doesn't reflect who we are as a club.

 

[jlove]

lack of discipline

Should be measured over a whole season, not a couple of games.

 

[BURFORD BEE]

...indeed....and I guess I can understand the reactionary thing by some during and after a game...like Liverpool and Brighton games...is to essentially blame YY and IT and their actions for our defeats... it's how those individuals choose to deal with it....they blame and throw players of the team they support under the bus rather than looking at the bigger picture.... but thankfully those types are in the minority imo and their values and views don't represent the majority of BFC supporters or that of BFC itself....again.... physical aggressive and lack of discipline is not how anyone should be depicting BFC... because it's simply not true and doesn't reflect who we are as a club.

Of course it doesn't, obviously we're biased but as things go I think we play the game in the right spirit and I don't think KA would have it any other way. I for one wouldn't support a club that played dirty or who were a team full of cheats. Liverpool for example!
On the other hand while YY and IT are anything but thugs, they were certainly responsible for us losing 6 points. They and the rest of the squad need to realise what we're up against with coaches who appear to actively encourage players to collapse in agony at the slightest touch, and officials who, giving them the benefit of the doubt, are at the very least naive and think that the game is more about them than the teams on the pitch.

 

[hanworthbee]

Of course it doesn't, obviously we're biased but as things go I think we play the game in the right spirit and I don't think KA would have it any other way. I for one wouldn't support a club that played dirty or who were a team full of cheats. Liverpool for example!
On the other hand while YY and IT are anything but thugs, they were certainly responsible for us losing 6 points. They and the rest of the squad need to realise what we're up against with coaches who appear to actively encourage players to collapse in agony at the slightest touch, and officials who, giving them the benefit of the doubt, are at the very least naive and think that the game is more about them than the teams on the pitch.

They aren’t responsible for us losing 6 points. I doubt we’d have got anything at Brighton with 11 on the pitch. Perhaps YY cost us three but you never know what would have happened in the second .

I maybe in the minority but I’m looking forward to watching Calum upfront as I think on the whole igor has been pretty sh*t this season imo

 

[lanzabee]

We should just cheat.
I hate cheaters. I really do.

But if we're to remain in this league (competitively) then we need to match them. If we cant "beat them", join them.

Im fed up with the way football has gone.

Agree. Really torn on this one, as if we allow other clubs to use this edge without descending to the same level it's gonna cost us. On the other hand I find it despicable and think it demeans and ruins the game. I guess our players are no angels, dont want to appear too sanctimonous and one eyed. On the other hand, I can't recall any of ours winding up oppo then dropping like flies. Could be wrong.

 

[lanzabee]

Do I believe that they were genuinely hurt? Of course not.

Can I prove it though? Unfortunately not.

Just like I cannot prove that Janelt wasn't hurt when he had a little roll around on the floor in the first half on Sunday, although I suspect not either.

In theory I agree with you completely but this is what you are dealing with and why it makes it nigh on impossible for the governing bodies to issue retrospective punishments.

They tried years ago to do something about diving when they gave a ban to an Arsenal player (Eduardo?) for throwing himself to the ground and winning an unjust penalty. Arsenal appealed it, showed that there had been the minutest little touch and simply said "Can you conclusively prove that this touch wasn't enough to unbalance a player running at full speed?" - the answer was no, the ban was rescinded and they gave up.

We as fans are completely complicit as well because we have all the energy in the world for opposition players when they go down easy etc but when its Dango throwing himself to the floor or Ivan Toney initiating contact for a penalty there is nothing but silence and a shrug.

Agree with a lot of this. But think there's a big difference between inviting fouls and provoking reactions, then playacting responses.

 

[birdy67]

They aren’t responsible for us losing 6 points. I doubt we’d have got anything at Brighton with 11 on the pitch. Perhaps YY cost us three but you never know what would have happened in the second .

I maybe in the minority but I’m looking forward to watching Calum upfront as I think on the whole igor has been pretty sh*t this season imo

What a *****!

 

[lanzabee]

Very accurate summary of IT's and YY's 'offences' from an 'independent' viewpoint.
Hopefully a few on here that have been looking to throw our 2 under the bus might read it and take note...........

Great article, he's nailed it

 

[Oceanbee]

View: https://x.com/BBCMOTD/status/2120221563635277994?a=gK9alrIfvJ5FPYHOrc0&s=20

In that photo, isn’t it illegal for the Brighton player to have his mouth around Thiago’s arm and biting it!!!

 

[larrysigny]

Regarding the increase in head injury simulation, one law that contributes to it is the perception that if a player receives a blow to the head, he is allowed to be treated but doesn't have to leave the field for 1 minute. Along with the interpretation of the violent conduct law around head conduct, it seems that players are exploiting this as an easy way to get the game stopped and potentially an opponent in trouble. However, the law actually states that a player doesn't have to go off if "a severe injury has occurred, especially a head injury (e.g. concussion), cardiac issue or life-threatening event (e.g. seizure, choking etc.)".

One thing that referees need to do immediately is to ask the physio to always to come on to do a concussion check (safeguarding purposes) when a head injury is being indicated and make that player leave even if there has been only mild contact with the head.

I suggested this some time ago and was very loudly shouted down. I think it would work.